For years, the topic of the separation of church and state has been loudly debated. Unfortunately, most of this debate has taken place in the churches in the form of preaching instead of constructive negotiation. Pastors rant against the evil tendencies of the government to strip the name of the Lord from courthouse walls, the pledge of allegiance and the face of our coins. They talk of how Madeline Murray O'Hare was successful in getting prayer removed from the schools. They complain when Christians are refused the use of public buildings for religious meetings. They believe the government is becoming more and more anti-Christian. They are quick to quote Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln and anyone else they can think of to prove that the forefathers of the United States intended this to be a Christian nation. Most of the arguments are woefully lacking, with good reason.

Before we begin, let's clear up a myth. Madeline Murray O'Hare did not have prayer removed from our schools. She was instrumental in removing school-sponsored prayer from our schools. More on this later.


Why Christians Lose The Debate

In their zeal to restore our "Christian heritage", some Christians reference things they believe to be true without first validating their accuracy or authenticity. Invariably, Thomas Jefferson will be quoted as being a defender of religious freedom. Opponents will then point out his character flaws and the fact that he was a slave owner. This places the Christian debater on the defensive. It is difficult, if not impossible to recover from such an attack.

Here is what Thomas Jefferson wrote in response to a letter sent to him by The Danbury Baptist Association, Oct. 7, 1801

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Don't use Thomas Jefferson to defend your desire to place sponsored prayer back in the schools.

An excerpt from Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom (1779)

SECT. II. WE the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Again, don't use Thomas Jefferson to defend your desire to place sponsored prayer back in the schools.

"In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book." Abraham Lincoln

Yes, Abraham Lincoln said this. He did not say the government shared his beliefs. He did not mandate governmental adherence to his beliefs. Do not use this quote to prove your point that we should have a Christian government.


What to do

1) Never reference a man in defense of your religious beliefs unless that man is Jesus. Anyone less can easily be defrocked, leaving your argument woefully lacking.

2) If you are going to reference our nation's Christian background, first arm yourself with the facts, ALL the facts. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.


The Way We Were

Times change. Governments change. Even if someone were able to prove that our country was founded on Christian principles, they would be hard pressed to successfully promote a return to "the good old days". As a country, we cannot return to the way things used to be. If we did, which time in history would we return to? The time when, under religious rule, we burned witches at the stake, or when many owned slaves? How about the time when we rounded up the Indians and forced them to live on reservations? There is a reason those situations do not exist anymore. Well, most of those situations don't exist. Which part of our checker past should we resurrect?

It is not possible to successfully maintain only one portion of history, while allowing the others to change. Some Christians how difficult it is to hold onto certain old-world values in an ever-changing society. The fact remains that our government is not "Christian". Individuals can be Christian. Groups are not Christian. Even groups of Christians do not always behave in a Christian-like manner. It is not realistic to expect non-Christians to maintain Christian behavior. Consequently, if we ushered in the Christian-like government that some people long for, we would have to eliminate non-Christians. Eventually, there would be problems with some Christians and the cycle would repeat itself.

We cannot return to a time when our government was Christian. We never had it. We probably never will.


The Victim Mentality

Most Christians approach the topic of Separation of Church and State from a victim's point of view. They start by trying to regain lost ground while applying no strong defense, or offense for that matter. They begin the debate as though they have already lost. Quick, tell me! What have we lost? Did we lose the right to pray in school? No. Did football players lose the right to pray publicly before a game? Nope. We can still pray in school. Athletes can still pray before a game. The school cannot sponsor a group prayer, but students can still pray. Christians should stop playing the victim and leverage their God-given right to pray, protected by the government.

Matthew 6:5-6
6:5 Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward.
6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.

Anyone can pray anytime. Jesus set the parameters for the desired location. The scriptures do not tell us to petition the government for school-sponsored prayer.


Our Divine Directive

Did you lose the right to use a public facility for a religious meeting? Can you find another place to hold that meeting? If they don't want us there, we should do what Jesus told us to do.

Matthew 10:12-14
10:12 As you enter the house, give it greetings.
10:13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come on it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
10:14 And if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your message, shake the dust off your feet as you leave that house or that town.

Shake the dust from your feet and move on. No emotion. No passion. Just move on. You have work to do.

Don't be so caught up, crying about lost religious freedoms that you fail to exercise the ones you have. Christians can still pray. Christians can still gather in the United States without fear of governmental harassment. You will be a victim as long as you allow yourself to be a victim. You are less effective as a Christian as long as you are satisfied with that role.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not register as conscientious objectors when king Nebuchadnezzar demanded everyone to worship his golden image. Daniel did not petition Congress for restoration of his religious freedoms when he was sitting with the lions. Not one person in the Bible whined about loss of religious freedoms. Not one accepted the role of a victim. Only in America...

Christians in many countries would welcome a separation of church and state. It means they would be allowed to worship without fear of governmental harassment or worse. China comes to mind...


Mutual Respect - Mutual Distance

The same Constitution that grants Christians the right to practice their faith without government intervention, also affords that same protection to other religions. It does not grant one faith a higher status than another. So, if you are wanting to somehow leverage what the Constitution says to justify public expressions of your beliefs, you are also fighting for a Moslem's right to offer their sponsored prayers in school. The Constitutional gate swings both ways. If sponsored prayer was returned to our schools, EVERY denomination, faith and creed would have equal right to offer a public prayer.


A Pathetic Reality

While we are on the topic of church organizations, who will decide which denomination will dictate the method of prayer in schools, public events, etc? If the church is going to rise victoriously over evil in the government, which church would that be? Church denominations cannot agree with each other, that is why we have so many of them. The church has been split, separated, homogenized and polarized so many times in history, it is difficult to believe they could ever come together and agree on how best to offer a prayer, much less purify a government. Methodist's might take issue if a person leading the prayer in school began to speak in tongues, right? Baptists would cringe when a member of the Unity church prayed to the almighty energy force at work within us for the common good. Church people say that we should have a Christian government, but they will never agree on which brand of Christianity will rule.

I think we have proven the folly of leveraging the Constitution to force our faith on society.


Praying For Your Country

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, who belong to me, humble themselves, pray, seek to please me, and repudiate their sinful practices, then I will respond from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land.

Christians claim this scripture for their country. Nobly, we call for revival in our land so that God will restore us to His blessing. They cite sin as the reason for the state our country is in. One sin is the removal of prayer from the schools. No matter how hard you try, you cannot show this verse is speaking about the United States or any other country for that matter.

"If my people..." does not refer to the citizens of the United States.

"...who belong to me..." The people of the United States are not called by God's name. Israel is called by God's name. Christians are called by God's name. The United States is not called by God's name.

"...forgive their sin and heal their land." The land in reference does not specify a country.

We deny our personal responsibility when we dedicate this scripture to our nation. If our "land" is not healed, we blame it on the behavior of other citizens in our country. Could it be possible that we are responsible for the health of our own land? We are personally called to repentance with or without the repentance of others. Take this scripture to heart and claim it as your own. Humble yourself and pray to God. Repent and He will forgive your sins and heal YOUR land.

We will always be disappointed when we try to apply scriptures to others, expecting them to change so we can receive a blessing. Our blessings are not contingent on other's obedience and adherence to the scriptures. The promise in 2 Chronicles 7:14 cannot be held from me by another person's sins. What kind of a God would say He will bless me only when someone else repents? How ridiculous!

Christians bemoan our government's anti-Christian sentiment. It is as if they want to lead our government to the altar. We have already determined that a government cannot be saved. Only individuals can be saved. Jesus focused on individuals. When individuals live holy lives, their collective gathering will be holy.

Newsflash! The Congress of the United States is not holy. They do not pattern their decisions after God's example. I am sure most people know that already, but I thought I would clear that up in case anyone was unsure.

When people are motivated by their own personal interests, they will not be concerned for yours. Even though people in Congress are there by the vote of the people, it has been proven they are looking out for #1 when they get in office. Consequently, people working in that environment might behave as you would expect them to.

Case in point: Christians are not supposed to be selfish.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
13:4 Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up.
13:5 It is not rude, it is not self-serving, it is not easily angered, or resentful.
13:6 It is not glad about injustice, but rejoices in the truth.
13:7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Does this sound like your government? If not, don't keep praying that government will become more Christian. Pray for their individual souls of those in government and their Christian behavior will follow.


* * * * * * *

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Christian Coalition leaders fired up the faithful Friday with a pro-Israel rally and a pitch to renew the group's power by rousting out the vote in November for conservative candidates.

"Get the few liberals out. If you don't do it, it ain't gonna be done," Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, told the crowd at the Washington Convention Center. "You will be doing the Lord's work, and he will richly bless you for it."

This was published October 11th 2002, in an Associated Press article. Senator James Inhofe says that we will be doing the Lord's work by voting the liberals out of Congress. I looked for a scripture to substantiate his statement and could not find one. While it is noble to vote your conscience and faith, it is not a scriptural mandate to purify a government. Here we have another example of speaking loudly when the scriptures are silent.

Here is another quote from the same article:

"The notion of separating church and state with such policies as disallowing prayer in public schools "is a deception from Satan," said Joyce Meyer, a convention sponsor."

"If God is in fact separated from the government, then we can never possibly have a godly government," Meyer said to a standing ovation. "There's no way for America to be good if she's not godly."

America cannot be Godly. The citizens of that country can. The country is not the people. The country is where the people live. Jesus did not come to save a nation. He came to save individuals. A similar statement would be to state there is no way for the Southern Baptist Convention to be good if it is not Godly. The organization cannot be Godly. The individuals working in the organization can be Godly.

Joyce Meyer continues:
"Meyer, head of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Missouri, said activists probably will find more spiritual awareness in the aftermath of the "wake-up call" of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. God did not cause the attacks, she said, but they should teach the country a lesson."

...as should the shootings at Columbine, the sniper in Virginia, pollution, abortion, and every other symptom of a sinful society. The term a wake-up call can easily be overused to bolster one's temporal agenda to call others to action. Make sure that statement is steeped in prayer and scripture before using it as a Godly proclamation.

More from Joyce:
"If we don't obey God, God's protection is lifted,"

Again, we should focus on our individual lives. And by the way Joyce, if God's protection is somehow lifted from the United States, it is not lifted from me. Now what?


A Blessing in Disguise

Let's revisit something else Joyce Meyer said in her speech.

"The notion of separating church and state with such policies as disallowing prayer in public schools "is a deception from Satan," said Joyce Meyer, a convention sponsor."

Joyce needs to read and understand that prayer has not been banned from our schools. School-sponsored prayer is not allowed. There is a vast difference.

The deception of Satan is that your hands are tied. As long as you behave like a victim, you will not live victoriously. As long as you overlook or misunderstand your blessings, you cannot live in them. Satan would LOVE for you to view a blessing as though it were a curse. This is contrary to what Joyce Meyer states. Notice the subtle way words are used to get you to believe you have lost the battle and it is time to fight. Fight for what? You can have your cake and eat it too! What more could you ask for?

Rather than being cursed, we are truly blessed because our Constitution protects our churches from our government. We are blessed if our government separates itself from the church. This means they have passed laws saying they will not interfere with church affairs. In return, the church should not interfere with government business. That's where the problem begins. The church wants the benefits the government affords, but does not want to pay for them. For example, churches want financial contributions to be tax deductible because they are a non-profit, religious organization. Churches sometimes blur the lines when they cross over into politics. We can preach from the Bible in church, but we cannot preach politics. The church cannot promote one political leader over another. If we do, we can lose our church's non-profit status. This is fair. If the church were busy preaching the gospel and saving souls, it would have no time for politics. We need to make up our minds. Is the church a religious organization or a political one? Register your 501c3 non-profit tax status with the government accordingly. Separation of church and state works very well for Christians if they take advantage of it and abide by the rules.

Christians in China pray for the separation of church and state. If such existed, they would be free to worship without persecution. Yes, the government imprisons, tortures and kills Christians in China.



Why Do Christians Keep Up The Fight?

Some Christians feel the need to stand up for a cause rather than healing the sick, feeding the hungry and raising the dead. A good political battle gives them a feeling of fulfillment. They feel as though they are accomplishing something noble. It is easier to fight something you can see, rather than something spiritual. It is easier to stand nobly against an evil government than to storm the gates of hell and gather souls for the kingdom. It is easier to trust speeches with eloquent words than to trust the Holy Spirit to lead you into what to say to an unsaved friend. Just remember, while some Christians are fighting the good fight against an evil government, souls are going to hell because no one is taking the time to tell them about Jesus. They are too busy.

It's scary to trust God. It is easier to lay hold onto a tangible enemy and stand in front of a camera than to trust God and let the Holy Spirit guide you. One hundred years from now, how much closer will the U.S. government be to Christian rule? Now calculate how many souls will burn in hell because Christians were too busy fighting for a Christian government. Seems lopsided, doesn't it?


And finally,

Jesus separated the church from the state.

Matthew 22:19-21
22:19 "Show me the coin used for the tax." So they brought him a denarius.
22:20 Jesus said to them, "[color=red]Whose likeness is this and whose inscription?"
22:21 They replied, "Caesar's." He said to them, "Then give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Whose image is on your life? If God's then serve God. If man's, then give it to man.

Pay your taxes. Matthew 22:21
Obey the laws of the land. Titus 3:1
If you have "issues", stay out of your government's way. Matthew 5:25 Romans 12:18
Live a humble life serving God. Micah 6:8

What we should do when we are involved with an evil assembly:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
6:14 Do not become partners with those who do not believe, for what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?
6:15 And what agreement does Christ have with Beliar? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever?
6:16 And what mutual agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said, "I will live in them and will walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
6:17 "Therefore come out from their midst, and be separate," says the Lord, "and touch no unclean thing, and I will welcome you,
6:18 and I will be a father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters," says the All-Powerful Lord.

We are not called to enact (force) change within the unbelieving assembly. As Christians, we are called to separate ourselves from them. These scriptures refer to, but is not exclusive to our involvement with idol worshippers and infidels. We are to separate ourselves from the unrighteous.


A little about my history in dealing with this topic:

In 1971, I was a senior in high school. We held prayer meetings every morning before class. These meetings were held in a large choir classroom. We also passed out thousands of Gospel tracts to other students. I was the one who supplied the tracts to other Christians to be passed out.

One day, a student took one of the tracts home to his parents. The student was upset over the message in the tract. The parents called the school and complained. I was taken to the principle's office and threatened that if we didn't stop passing our tracts, I would be expelled from school. They also wanted the prayer meetings stopped immediately.

I challenged their authority to make these demands. They produced legal documents stating that religious materials could not be distributed on school property. To comply with the law, we agreed to stop handing our tracts inside the school. We took that activity to the sidewalks in front of the school because that was public property and not school property. They could not produce a document to justify their demand that we stop praying in school. They pressed for my expulsion from school.

The principle called my parents to tell them why they were expelling me from school, in an attempt to get them to influence my stance. They were surprised to hear my mother dare them to expel me for such a thing. My parents supported me. The principle's office then called for a special meeting of the school board.

In the meantime, some of the students from the prayer meeting went across the street to the local newspaper office. We stated that if, indeed the law stated we could not pray in school, we wanted the law changed. They took my picture and published the article in the next edition. The chaos that followed was unbelievable! I received phone called from the ACLU, showing interest in the issue. GO AWAY! Youth for Christ called, offering to pay legal fees "clear to the supreme court" if necessary. I told them to stand down and see what happens.

I ordered 1000 bumper stickers that said "Support Our Praying Teens". We did not have the money to pay for them, but I knew God wanted them printed so I ordered them in faith, knowing He would provide. On the day, they were to be picked up, we still did not have the money. My mother unhappily wrote a check to cover the cost and said I would have to pay her back. That evening, a man came by the house and said he wanted to help with our fight to keep our prayer meetings. He wrote a check for the amount to cover the printing costs. My mother almost fainted.

We handed out the bumper stickers to anyone who promised to put one on their car. The city was buzzing over the dedication of the youth in our school.

Pastors began to preach about this situation from the pulpits. Most were in support. One church called me a Judas, saying I was trying to force the Lord's hand in overthrowing the laws. I later spoke with the pastor, telling him the truth about what was really happening. His next sermon called his church to support our cause.

During the special (emergency) meeting of the school board, I was reprimanded for my behavior. I refused to back down. I wanted to see a legal document stating that we had no right to pray in school. The school board could not produce such a document. All they could produce were documents stating the school could not sponsor our prayer. The prayer meetings were not school sponsored. They were run by the kids. It could not be proven that the school was sponsoring a prayer by allowing us to use a room. I told them if they wanted to push that point, we would stand in the school lawn and hold our prayer meetings. They decided they did not want to endure that public display and granted us the use of the choir room. They said we could continue holding our prayer meetings as long as no school employee sponsored the prayer. In return, they wanted me to promise not to talk to the press again.

Not so fast! After all, this was an election year and they wanted to call a halt to the publicity. I was also a senior and they could easily reverse their decision the next school year. I demanded a document from them, giving students the right to hold prayer in the school, signed by each member of the school board, or we would tell the press what happened in the school board meeting.

We got our signed document.

The kids still hold prayer meetings in that school, over 30 years later.

Don't tell me what can or cannot be done. I have been there. I have personally fought that battle.

As long as the government stays out of the church's business, we can continue preaching the love of Christ. Know where the laws limit your activities and leverage your freedoms.


Here is a song I wrote in 1971. It was not popular then. It was considered radical. Somehow, it seems more possible today, doesn't it?

Whatcha Gonna Do?
Rod (c) 1971

Whatcha gonna do when they start shooting Christians?
Whatcha gonna do when the end times come?
Whatcha gonna do when they take away your Bible?
Will you server the Lord or turn and run?

I know what you were told.
I was told that too.
But what if things get as bad
As Jesus said in Matthew?

Christians in countries all over the world
Are being put to death for the cause of the Lord
Now tell me, what makes you think we are better than they?
Still some people say we will escape.

When the anti-christ in the holy place is sitting
Stop where you are, to the mountains then flee
For where the carcass is, the vultures gather
Where will the modern-day catacombs be?

I know what you were told.
I was told that too.
But what if things get as bad
As Jesus said in Matthew?

Whatcha gonna do when they start shooting Christians?
Whatcha gonna do when the end times come?


- Rod

Copyright (c) Rod
Use without permission is prohibited


Comments:
Scott66 said: Rod obviously put a LOT of effort into this article. I've been reading intently, and my reaction is one of thanks. I'm glad that there are Rods out there keeping us on our toes. We need to know our stuff. I DO believe that our founding fathers were Christian government members writing a series of documents for a nation mostly consisting of Christian citizens. I also believe that our government's laws have a huge affect on the overall actions of the nation's citizens which DO affect the number of blessings we receive from God as whole. Obviously, individuals are responsible for their OWN relationships to God.

So much was covered in the article about striving for personal witnessing instead of keeping our government aligned with God's laws. I agree that we each are responsible to greet everyone we meet with the Gospel. However, I'd just like to point out one thing. The Bible DOES put a lot of emphasis on government as well.
For example, each of the prophets mentioned in Hebrews 11 was involved in civil government one way or another. Moses was a diplomat, etc., Joseph was IN Egyptian government, and Isaiah 9:6 says the "government will be upon His shoulders" (Christ's). My point is that individual witnessing is absolutely necessary and affects that person's eternity and ours; however, I think we should be involved in keeping the government (members and laws) in check so that our many privileges aren't wiped out by people like the ACLU, etc.
So, in closing, I again say thank you to Rod for reminding us of the liberties that government cannot take away, and that we are victorious in Christ and should act like it!!

- Rod

Copyright (c) Rod
Use without permission is prohibited

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